030: Finding Your Happy Place in Food Photography with Jackie Alpers

Mica: [00:00:00] Welcome. To the 30th episode. What? Of The Savory Shot. Y'all, I cannot believe it's been 30 episodes. Damn, it feels like it's been 500 bazillion shows. I feel like Brad Pitt in that movie, The Curious Case of Benjamin Button. You know, when he's born old, but he's like, a child.

That's what this show feels like. Damn, y'all.

If this is your first time joining this hot mess express of a show, allow me to introduce myself. My name is Mica, and I'm your host with the most. Man life has been so damn busy. Gosh, I missed y'all. I missed y'all so, so, so much. Before I start this amazing [00:01:00] episode.

And believe me, it is a bomb, bomb episode. I've gotta give thanks first. Y'all, I've said it once, I'll say it again and I'll keep saying it until y'all get it. Y'all are the reason this show exists. Thank you so much for being here. Cause you could've been anywhere, doing anything, but you're here with me.

I couldn't be more grateful. So thank you. Danke schoen. Gracias. Yeah, that's all I know. I should really learn how to say thank you in a few more languages other than English, Spanish, and I think I said something in German. Is that German? I only know it because of That one song.

Don.

Don. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the only reason why I know that. So, [00:02:00] um, if you have any, like, if you know any other ways to say thank you in other languages or maybe your language, hit your girl up, spread the knowledge, give you some help.

Last episode I had the funnest conversation with Evie Abler. And y'all, that conversation, damn, it just fed my soul. So if you have not checked that out, please, please, please, go listen to it.

I promise it's worth it. But y'all, today's episode... It's bangin Oh, it is bangin. It's such a great show. I know I say this every single time, but y'all, this is, this is my favorite interview ever. My favorite, absolute favorite interview ever. .

I'm just gonna jump right in. Cuz yo girl is hopped up on espresso and is beyond thrilled [00:03:00] to talk about today's guest. So without further ado, meet our amazing and oh so sweet and oh so kind Jackie Alpers. Jackie is a dynamic food photographer, recipe developer, and cookbook author based in Tucson, Arizona.

Her photos are so much fun, y'all, and they're energetic, and y'all, her recipes are delish. Seriously, you've got to try her French toast recipe, and I'm gonna put it in the show notes so you can make it for yourself. Y'all, I made this last weekend for my husband and I. We ate so good that mornin. And we used challah bread?

It was the best. It was the best. Absolute best. Having Jackie on the show, it was an absolute honor. We talked about so so, so, so, so, so much in this episode. We talked about Jackie leaving her [00:04:00] home in Ohio to study art, her experiences with finding moments in her work, and how you can do the same for yourself, and how her background as a waitress taught her lessons that she carries with her to this day.

But y'all, before I get into this, before I get ahead of myself, let's start the show.

Mica: I just want to [00:05:00] start by saying thank you super, super so much for being on the show and for joining me on this crazy ride. This is so awesome to have you here.

Jackie: Thanks for having me. I'm very excited to be here.

Mica: Oh man, I, I tell you what, I had so much fun doing my, I call it stalking, but the polite term is research.

And one thing that I love discovering and learning about you is that you had a blog and that's how I got started as a food photographer is I had a blog too. Anytime I meet another food photographer whose start is the same as mine. I'm like, we're sisters! We're BFFs.

I want to start this interview off because I've got so many things that I know we're going to have a jam chatting about everything. I want to start off about your beginnings. You moved to Tucson, what was it, in 92, 93? Yeah. You were [00:06:00] fresh with your photography degree, so what I wanna know is what scared you the most about that time?

Jackie: That's a great question. I don't know if I was scared as much as anxious. When you make a big change in your life, there's an element of excitement there, but there's also a little bit of anxiety about the unknown of starting something new. I felt like I made the right decision, but I really had no idea what was going to happen next.

I felt like I knew I needed to leave Ohio where I grew up and where I went to college and I needed to move west but after that, I really I really was just kind of open to like the possibilities ahead of me. And I kind of go into like uh, I want to say emergency mode, like even if there's no emergency, I'm like, okay, what's the plan?

What am I going to [00:07:00] do? How am I going to make things happen? So I go extra into like, got to get a job, got to make money, just got to survive. It was basic kind of survival skills, I think were at the forefront of my mind at that time.

Mica: Oh man, I totally feel you on the survival mode. What was the first thing that did settle in that checklist of yours?

Jackie: I actually had a job before I got here at Kidco, which is an afterschool program, teaching art to kids, which is a fabulous program, but it paid like minimum wage and it was only like, 12 hours a week. I was glad to have experienced that, but I knew right away that I needed to get another job, so I had a friend suggest that I go to this restaurant called El Charro Cafe that they were looking for waiters and bussers, and I got hired there.

What's surprising about that is that that actually became a [00:08:00] catalyst for everything that I'm doing now. I'd waited tables before, for years, like in college. But this restaurant, which is the oldest family owned, Mexican restaurant in the United States, really taught me about a whole new style of cuisine that I was completely unfamiliar with and it also taught me kind of these leadership skills that I would have never expected. I started out as a busser and a bartender, and then I moved on to being waiter and I was there for two and a half years and since it's family owned, the family really took me under their wing and taught me a lot about not only the cuisine, but all aspects of running a restaurant. And that was very surprising at it's not what I was expecting.

Mica: You mentioned something earlier that's really great is that that it working for this restaurant taught you a lot about leadership. Would you say that it also taught you how to lead a team and did that become [00:09:00] useful later on as a photographer?

Jackie: Yes. Yes and no. The most important thing that it taught me was how to communicate effectively in order to get things done quickly. Because when you're waiting tables, you are working with the kitchen, you're working with your bus staff, you're working with the, completely changing at every moment group of customers and so you really have to be able to think on your feet and act quickly and act effectively within that group.

Mica: Gosh that makes so much sense. I think a big reason why photography has worked out so well for me is because of my background in theater, because of all the things that you just listed, you're dealing with many different groups of people.

You're dealing with many different energies, many different moods, different personalities, and you are communicating to lots of different groups that are all working together. That's essentially a restaurant. Everybody's working together to bring this food out to your [00:10:00] customer and that's what theater is.

We are all working together collectively to do this show.

Jackie: Yes, that, that's exactly it. And theater and waiting tables have way more in common than I think people would realize, especially improv. I think that both of those things are really, really tied into improv and being able to react in the moment.

Mica: Improv is probably one of the toughest things I've ever done. I meet other theater lovers who are also photographers because they bring all of that experience and skills into their shoots and it makes it a really fun thing to be a part of.

Jackie: You know, I hadn't thought about it until you brought it up, but you are so right. I really wanted to be an actress from the time that I was in kindergarten. I remember we did this like Thanksgiving. Some are Indians and some are Pilgrims and the whole thing. And I was like, at that moment, [00:11:00] deciding that I wanted to be an actress.

And I was really, really, held onto that belief until I was like a senior in high school and I was in show choir. I realized that, that performing the same thing over and over again wasn't really for me. And that I I didn't really want to be doing somebody else's art, which at the time is really what I thought theater was.

Also I couldn't figure out how I could be an actor and not be in, like, New York.

Either you're really successful or you're, like, doing local plays. There was no in between, you know? So I. I decided to go to art school instead, but that love of theater and that background in performing has really contributed to who I am. And I would not have even thought about it if [00:12:00] he hadn't brought that up, so.

Mica: We are one in the same, because that was the same struggle I had. I was like, I don't want to live in New York.

New York looks great, but... It also looks ruthless and I either have New York or L. A. Where, where's the middle?

Jackie: Right. Exactly.

Mica: I want to take it to your food blog, your past food blog. And I actually I went on Wayback Machine. Are you familiar with Wayback Machine?

Jackie: Yeah. I'm very impressed that you did that.

Mica: I love Wayback Machine. I found your very, I don't know if it was your first, was this your first recipe? The, the, uh, vanilla cinnamon french toast? Oh, it was! What? Okay, that's awesome. That's awesome. I'm actually planning to make it, because that looked pretty bomb. I was like, uh, I love cinnamon.

I love vanilla, and I love French toast, and I haven't had it in a minute, so I'm making it.

The first thing I want to know, is where did the name Jackie's Happy Plate come from?

Jackie: [00:13:00] Well, I was at a restaurant and I kind of see plates of food with smiles in them. There'd be, like, two eggs for eyes and a bacon for a mouth, or whatever. At that time, I kept seeing these, like, happy face plates of food just randomly showing up, like, not, they weren't that on purpose.

I'd be sitting there, like, there's a smiling face inside my breakfast. I like the idea of there's a little bit of joy on the plate when you weren't expecting it. Interestingly enough, I, I just gave that up this month. Where I decided that after 13 years, I was going to transition that blog to just being recipes. jackiealpers. com. I thought it was time to encapsulate everything together. I'd always thought of the blog as being separate from my photography portfolio, even though there was always a photography element to it. [00:14:00] And that the, in fact, the blog was born from food photography, pretty much first, but I just decided that it was time to mush that all into just Jackie Alpers.

And I, and I was sad to see it go. I mean, it's still, you know, still up there, but, but it's, it's, it's transitioning.

Mica: There comes a point where you have to, or you need to decide where you're going to put your focus and attention on. That's essentially the crossroads that we came to with Let's Talk About It, the, the food blog that I co owned with my friend Charlotte. We had a real sit down conversation and I said are we continuing this blog because we really enjoy the recipes that we're putting out, the community that we've built, or are we continuing this for nostalgic reasons?

If our heart isn't in it, and there are other things in our lives that are taking priority over this blog, then it is perfectly [00:15:00] fine to call it a day, honor the work that you've done, but focus your attention. Was that the case for you?

Jackie: No, because I still got all of the recipes up there and going. It was more just realizing that I am all of those things. That Jackie's Happy Plate is not separate from who I am as a food photographer any longer. I've realized that I'm not just Jackie Alpers, the photographer. I am Jackie Alpers, the author. I am Jackie Alpers, the recipe developer. And so to keep Jackie's Happy Plate as a separate entity really no longer made any sense. It didn't need to be separate. It needed to be encapsulated.

Mica: Jackie's Happy Plate became synonymous with you, so it doesn't need its own space because when people see Jackie's Happy Plate, they automatically connect it to you. I'm glad that those recipes are still up because they're bomb as hell.

Jackie: When I was moving everything to the [00:16:00] new site, the photos didn't all go. I had to re upload all the photos and I was just uploading that French Toast photo again just last week.

So it was on my mind. It's extra interesting that you brought it up, especially because that photo ended up being the first one of my food photographs that was featured in American Photography. It was kind of the first big photography award that I got and it was from that image which was an image that just happened. I even think that that recipe and deciding to put up that recipe was also just something that happened. That's a recipe that I've been making you know, forever and I, I was I was doing the recipe like I always do where I was putting all the ingredients into a bowl and I put the bread in the bowl and I looked at what I [00:17:00] had there and I realized it was beautiful.

So I just grabbed my camera and photographed it. I don't even know if I would have even written the recipe down if I hadn't made a photo of something that, that I really liked first, and then realizing, hey, there's value in showing the recipe behind the photo as well. I come from a different place as a lot of food bloggers where they're like recipe, recipe, recipe first.

I was always photo first.

If I see something that piques my imagination and I want to photograph it, at least at first, were the recipes that I wanted to write down and share.

Mica: Thinking from a photo first approach, did that change how you developed recipes or how you talked about your recipes or food photography?

Jackie: I think that they are so tied in with each other, even now. [00:18:00] Of course now I have to come up with certain kinds of recipes, but I'm always thinking about the image first. If I don't think that I can get a good photograph from a recipe, I'll tend to not do it or I'll really think about the plan of like, what is this going to look like? And do I need to change the recipe in order to make an image that works? There are some recipes that are hard to photograph and I don't shy away from those things.

But I do alter the images and the recipes kind of based on what that final thing is going to look like and vice versa. There's a chicken and rice recipe in my Taste of Tucson book that just like It just looked like brown on a plate and I'm like, well, okay.

It's just gonna look like, we're like, what do I [00:19:00] do?

Do I add a garnish? Do I plate it differently? Do I need to add, and I think one thing I did was I added a little bit of a grated cheese on the top, which kind of helped make it pop, and a little cilantro. And that alters the recipe. And also really altered the taste. So, the recipe came out better as a result of me wanting the thing to look a certain way.

Mica: I hate photographing chili and I avoid photographing chili at all costs. It really is just my least favorite thing.

I remember someone asked me, they're like, why, why do you hate photographing chili? And I'm like, cause it literally looks like diarrhea in a bowl. Like you can't. I don't know, I don't even know where to start to fix that up. And they're like, well, thanks. Now when I look at the chili, that's the visual I have in my head and I go, yeah, so you can imagine me, a food photographer looking at this bowl of chili and I'm like, yeah, that just doesn't.

Some dishes are just naturally [00:20:00] beautiful. And you don't need to add much to it, but for the ones that aren't, that's where you have to like get really creative.

And it does get frustrating, especially with like Tex Mex. God, I love it. But god, it is so hard to photograph because of all the brown, the brown. Heh, heh, heh, heh, heh, heh.

Jackie: And liquid. Anything.

Soup is hard because it's in flux. Anything that's constantly moving. I know it's just sitting there in the bowl, but it's still moving within that space, you know? Floating around, doing its own thing.

Mica: Like matzo ball soup. I love matzo ball soup, but oh man, if we put a little bit of pepper and it just moves around in that broth and I'm like, okay, this would be a really cute stop motion. But all I have is a carrot and a matzo ball to work with, and some broth.

Like, what do I do with this, you know?

Jackie: I actually, that's funny, because I have a matzo ball. It's a bombigas,[00:21:00] matzo ball soup in my Taste of Tucson Cookbook. At the end, it was the very last thing. I was like, I gotta rephotograph this. I cannot. I cannot let this picture be in there. I was just like, no.

And so I just completely remade it. It's always like a little bit of a puzzle, which is cool like, how you gonna solve this one? Sometimes you Just have to keep redoing it. I think one of the reasons that my photographs have been successful is that I tend to not give up. Until I'm happy.

If it takes me ten times, I'm like kicking myself the whole time, like what the heck's wrong with you, having to do this thing over and over again? But then I remind myself, you know what? A year from now, you're not gonna remember that you remade that stupid matzo ball soup ten times, and it was like, How many bowls? You're just going to remember the final image.

I try to not be hard on myself when things are complicated because that's part of the process. You got to work through it until all the pieces [00:22:00] come together in the right way.

And you don't always have that time. If you're at a restaurant, that's a completely different situation because you're dealing with somebody else's food. You're dealing with a chef who may have very specific ideas about what they think something is supposed to look like. If you're lucky, you're getting something that's plated kind of well, but you still have to figure it out.

You were like, okay, this is what I got. What can I do to make it work? And is it that I turn it around? Is it that I shoot it from another angle? Is it that I ask them to replate it? Because sometimes that's all you can do. Then you have to explain to them why and how you need it to be replated. They don't necessarily understand that you need some kind of visual hook in there. Even if it's that one carrot, like in your matzo ball soup, at least it's something that brings your eye in. And not every chef is like into hearing that, I, I think they are [00:23:00] more lately because I think that they understand the value of having a strong visual.

But yeah, as long as you're doing it kindly and giving an explanation and not just like, Well, that's hideously ugly, or whatever. Not that anyone would hopefully do that. You have to think, you have to kind of work with where you are in the moment.

Mica: You brought up such a great point earlier about chefs not knowing how to plate food.

I have to explain to chefs that plating food for consumption is so different than plating it for photography. And when I usually say that to them, they, they kind of get it. They're like, okay, they're a little bit more open to receiving it. What's the most surprising thing that you've learned about working with chefs?

Jackie: Well, they vary a lot. Just like anything else.

I've had chefs who were convinced that [00:24:00] it was okay to bring out completely cold dish that had like congealed sauce. Because it was going to look okay in the photograph, and that they would have been taught that they don't need to cook the food through for a photo.

I don't know. I don't know where the hell I had.

Mica: Who said that? If you're listening, stop it. Stop it.

Jackie: Don't serve anything to the viewer that you wouldn't serve to a customer. That's what I ended up telling people because I was really surprised that anyone would ever think that.

People can tell if a piece of meat is not cooked.

Mica: Yeah, I'm not gonna look at that raw steak and be like, yeah, I want to eat that raw steak. No, it needs, I need some char marks, okay? Like, please cook the damn thing. Make it look cooked, please.

I want to take it to an interview that you did with Muse world and you described your photography style [00:25:00] as dynamic relatable fun And I love that you chose the word dynamic. I'm curious, what inspired you to choose dynamic as one of the words to describe your style?

Jackie: That's a great question. To me dynamic means that the images have a certain energy and to them and that they're visually straightforward design wise. When I think of something as being dynamic, I feel like there's a presence there, that you can pick up on and that that's accentuated by strong visual.

Mica: The one thing that drove me nuts about photography school is they always talked about your style, your style, your style. You know, trends come and go, but style is forever. And I'm like, I don't know what the fuck that means.

And I do now because... My style did develop and I learned things that I really like and how the lighting style that I [00:26:00] love to photograph in and it became, over the years, my style developed. And a lot of me figuring that part of myself out had to do with my blog, with Let's Talk About It.

My question for you is, did your style develop from Jackie's Happy Plate? Where did your style develop from and when did you discover that you like to create dynamic, fun, and relatable images?

Jackie: My style evolved from looking at the work of photographers that I liked and trying to incorporate aspects of the things that I saw that I liked into my own work. But anytime anyone does that, unless you're some kind of genius, which I'm not, you can't really recreate the work of somebody else, no matter how hard you try.

There's something about [00:27:00] the process that no matter what you do, you're gonna incorporate some aspect of your individuality into that. I saw the trends. As I'm looking at work that I like and thinking about why I like it and trying to incorporate that into my own work and seeing what the results are, that's really how my style developed because then I would say, okay, well, here's what this looks like.

What am I going to do next? It's almost like my style evolved from my own work. Once I started thinking about what I liked in other people's work and I started incorporating that into my work, then I would hold on to the things that I saw in my own images that I liked.

I started to reincorporate them going forward. So it came to this process that I think a lot of art students do. [00:28:00] Is you learn about art history and you learn about why it's important and why it works and what you love about it. And then you take that inspiration and you incorporate it into like what you think you want to do and you grow.

But you get to a point where it's no longer about the thing that you loved in the beginning. It is still, you can still love those things, but after making enough of your own work, it just starts to take on a life of its own.

Mica: That is super duper true about looking at other photographers work, discovering what it is that you like about theirs, but I never imagined that developing a style can come from your own work as an artist.

That makes so much more sense to me than anything else. Because especially in those beginner years, we are looking at other people's work and we are trying to emulate what they're doing. And it doesn't perfectly come out that way, but then we discover, I [00:29:00] like this better. I avoid the tutorials that teach you like how to do bright and airy, bright or whatever. Or dark and moody, how to do hard light photography, that type of thing. I avoid those types of tutorials because I like to go in the studio and try to figure it out for myself. I'm going to look at the photo. I'm going to analyze it. I'm going to study it. And I'm going to look at the light and think about, well, what did they do to accomplish this? And then once I have like an idea or game plan in my brain, then I go in the studio and I try to do it. What advice would you give to photographers who are struggling to learn their style or what they like and finding their place in this world.

Jackie: A whole bunch of stuff started coming in my head when you said that. Cause you started talking about the light and bright.

Was like, oh, you know what? There have been things that I've tried to do and when I was doing it, I was not enjoying it. I don't really like trying to figure out how to [00:30:00] use strobes. Because first of all, I want to see what's happening in the moment. If I'm gonna light something.

I don't want to have a flash. I realize okay, I don't need to learn strobes. I don't even have to learn this like fancy whatever lighting things with all you know, all that stuff is like It's like, I'm not really interested in that, and when I was doing it, I was hating it.

And that is an important clue. If I'm not enjoying doing this, then that's not right for me. If you think that you have to make something to fit in with some idealized version of what you think a photograph is supposed to be, and then you're doing it, and you're hating it, or it just, it's not what, what you, who you are, then that's not what you, that's not you.

Some people think that food photography is supposed to be this very specific thing, and I do see a lot of of bloggers in particular who have all decided that food photography is supposed to look this very specific [00:31:00] way. Not only is that boring, but it's also untrue.

There's so much food photography out there right now. Not everybody doing food photography is a food photographer. It's fine if that's what you need to illustrate whatever's on your blog or whatever, but it's not really what makes you a valuable food photographer other than that.

So don't get caught up in what you think you're supposed to do or what you think the world wants from you. It's important to a point, you know, like if everybody hates it, well then you're screwed.

Mica: You're creating photos for yourself.

Jackie: There's nothing wrong with that kind of, but you have to kind of find a middle ground shirt.

Mica: You raise such a great point about doing what you enjoy and what works for you. There will always be a client looking for that. Today there's so much opportunity that you [00:32:00] can be a little bit more choosy about what you do.

And it makes no sense if you don't enjoy doing strobes, then don't do them. And don't market yourself to clients who expect you to do them. Go find assignments that are more tailored to that. If you do enjoy strobes and the thought of like walking into a restaurant terrifies you because you don't know what the lighting situation is going to be like, then don't do that.

You can find clients that want to be in a studio with strobes. Like you can choose what and how you create art. It's just not one, one rule.

Jackie: When I first graduated from art school, it never even occurred to me that I could be a food photographer because food photography was all this weirdly, completely fake in studio, images of like ice cream made out of mashed potatoes or everything was like shellacked literally was shellacked with like [00:33:00] this really harsh lighting and it was this like really techie weird thing.

Like In 1993 food photography was very different. It's completely evolved and changed since the invention of the iPhone for one, you know, and the fact that everybody's got a camera with them all the time and the invention of, of, of blogging.

I mean, really food photography is a completely different medium than it was when I was in art school, which is why I didn't know that I could be one. What's interesting about it is that you don't know what's going to happen. You don't know where your life's going to take you.

But I would have never guessed that that's where I would be. I don't know where what food photography it's gonna be like five years from now. Maybe it's all gonna be robots, you know AI it's gonna take over and your camera's gonna decide, you know with the photograph.

Mica: I am one of the most futuristic people. I see something and I'm like, hell yeah, how can I use that as a [00:34:00] photographer? How can I incorporate that in my workflow?

And so, uh, uh, Elon. Whoever, I don't think Elon's smart enough to do it, but maybe he has enough money to hire the people to do it. Whoever is building a robot, can you like, put a move on it? Cause your girl needs, needs a robot to hang lights and stuff.

Jackie: Love the idea of technology advancing so that it's helping me solve problems that I don't really need to have that much.

I mean, I need to know like, what is the thing I wanted to have in focus, but that I know it's going to do it for me.

Mica: That would be freaking wonderful. One of the struggles that I faced when I got into food photography, and I don't know if it's like starting to go away or whatever, I don't know, but, I had a new photographer reach out to me and they're like, so I, I noticed that you got your start as a, as a food blogger, and they're like, don't like to cook, but I do love food photography.

Do I have to have a food blog in order to be a food [00:35:00] photographer? And I told him, absolutely not.

I know that working on your food blog that allowed you to develop and grow as a, as a food photographer. Has that role in food blogging changed? Has food blogging become synonymous with food photography? When people think of food photography, do they think automatically food blog? Or do you think the tide is changing on that?

Jackie: To some extent, when they think of food blogging, yeah, they, they expect to see photography, unless you're a really good illustrator. Now is food photography only about blogging? Heck no. I think people kind of forget. We still need food photography for advertising. We still need it for products. We still need it for packaging and you need a certain degree of professionalism to be able to pull something like that off.

Mica: I want to take it to that [00:36:00] same interview that you did with Muse. You listed your favorite quote from Diane Arbus is the bomb. com. You need to go like study everything she's ever created. Everything, everything. But, the quote that she said is I work from awkwardness by that.

I mean, I don't like to arrange things. If I stand in front of something, instead of arranging it, I arrange myself. The question I have for you is what drew you to this quote from Diane and how does it resonate with your approach to photography?

Jackie: Oh, I love this. It's because it all comes back to you, the photographer. I'm going to say it's that it's not, it's that it's not. You, it's me approach. I think as a photographer, you can't be like, it's your fault. You're not doing what I need you to do. You need to be doing something else. It's like, no dude, you need, I'm the one that needs to change.

If I don't like what I'm seeing, I need to change something [00:37:00] about myself in order to get what it is that I'm looking for, for what I'm experiencing. Because if you think about photography, everything is just a series of moments captured.

And so, um, sorry, give me a second. My phone. Siri. And then so I'm waiting up and then asking me what I want and I'm like, I need to enunciate it better, and if I say something where it thinks to be it, poof. And I think I'm asking Siri to help me find something.

Mica: Siri pops up when you don't need her ass, and then when you are clearly saying her name, she is no where around. You're like Siri, hey sit, sit, where the fuck are you Siri?

Jackie: So, a series of moments,

It's up to you to find that moment within the series of moments. And that's what Diane Arbus [00:38:00] did amazingly well, and especially because she's shooting film, right? She's got, you know, whatever, 12 or 24 frames in order to wait and experience the moment as it's happening and capturing it based on her own personal experience.

And that is what photography is all about. It's about you deciding, okay, well, what I'm seeing is is up to me and when I choose to click that shutter is up to me. And if I take a step to the left, how is that going to change what I'm seeing? If I wait five seconds, how is what, what is happening going to change?

So that is why I love that quote, because it puts the responsibility solely on the photographer instead of trying to blame the subject for whatever's going on. And then God don't even try and blame food because food is not listening. [00:39:00]

Mica: You're like, why does this look bad? You're making it look bad.

Move your body! Change positions. Do something. Try something.

Jackie: Talk for that. Do anything. Don't, but don't be a victim. Don't be a victim to that sandwich.

Mica: I love that we're taking that ownership. It goes back to what you were saying about creating your own art. You know, you are taking ownership over the thing that you are photographing, the subject that you're photographing. I mean, that's great.

Jackie: And you're also existing in that moment.

Basically, photography is about you living your life in that moment. You're there. You're experiencing something. Every single second has the opportunity to be captured or not captured. It's what you do with that second that counts. Or a fraction of a second. I mean, you know, you're shooting a 60th, 100th of a second.

Think about how many things happen. In a second, if you're shooting at a hundredth of a second and how [00:40:00] many opportunities you have to experience that moment visually.

Mica: I bought this camera. It's a called paper shoot camera. It's like a disposable camera. All the images are shot to a SD card but it is a very simple camera.

It has a little viewfinder, you press a little button, it has four switches, you can either shoot like in a regular white balance, a cool white balance. It has a black and white and then it has , sepia, sepia, sepia, one of those words. And that's it. You can't see what the photo looks like.

There's no viewfinder to look through. You just, it's like a disposable camera. It operates and it's thin. It's like paper thin.

Jackie: Cool. I've not heard of this thing and it's very interesting.

Mica: In my opinion, I think it's a little overpriced. It's a, it's an expensive toy.

I took it with me on my trip. My husband and I went to Galveston, [00:41:00] Texas for our anniversary and normally I take my, my DSLR with me but this time I decided I am going to rely on my iPhone and I'm going to rely on this paper shoot camera. With the paper shoot camera, there's nothing to look at. You take the picture and you just hope for the best that you got exactly what it is that you're there to photograph.

You really are dependent on whatever lighting is present. And that was really hard for me to do, but your point about being present in the moment, taking ownership of whatever you're photographing, it just reminded me so much of that paper shoot camera.

You did an interview with James Robinson on his blog and you mentioned that you wait and watch for unexpected moments to capture during your shoots and you expressed that before and I love that. What was the time when this approach led to a particularly memorable [00:42:00] image?

Jackie: This is kind of the theme of what we've been talking about today, is that sometimes it's important to let life happen and to slow down and take things in and watch and wait. Don't try and force something that isn't happening or don't miss something important that's happening just because that wasn't part of the plan. The reason that that French Toast photo was an important lesson for me was because I was just starting to decide what I wanted to do with food photography and it presented itself to me. That photo presented itself to me.

That's just my usual way of making that recipe, but the way that I happened to put the Cinnamon and the vanilla in with the egg, it it created this reaction, you know the way that the the solids and the liquids were interacting [00:43:00] with each other in a way that made it almost like handmade paper.

It was just happened to be, like, science, science, project in the making, just a little, like, all on its own. If I hadn't been aware, and I hadn't been looking and watching, I I could have missed it. I realized that it was more important to stop what I was doing.

Go get my camera and photograph this thing, then to actually make the French toast. As we've been talking about, life is a series of moments, and if you're not paying attention, you could miss something really valuable.

Mica: Oh, for sure. For sure. There's one photographer, that comes to mind.

Jamie Livingston. He took a Polaroid a day, and he did it from 1979 until he died in 1997. , His friend did an interview about him, and said that Jamie would take one photo, and he, he meant one photo, and there were like moments where [00:44:00] the two of them would be hanging out, and he would tell him, Jamie, this would be a great photo of the day, and he'd like, It was very nonchalant about it.

It was like a checklist like, Ah! I already took a photo of my coffee. He was like, more about living in the present. He never planned what was a photo of the day. It was one moment out of each day. And once it was done, it was done.

There was no, Oh, this would be a better moment. It was like, no, this is the moment that I've chosen for this day. Our conversation very much heavily revolves around living in the moment. Jamie Livingston reminds me so much of that. I have two more questions for you. This has been, I've loved everything about today's conversation.

Jackie: this, This conversation is reminding me how much I love to talk about photography. Not just photography, you know, whatever, but the art of photography and talking about the inspiration behind photography, where I think photography has become so commonplace [00:45:00] that it's easy to forget that it is art.

And it is science.

Mica: It is science and it is art. When I was developing this podcast and thinking about the types of conversations that I wanted to have, I wanted definitely for it to be educational, but I also believe that there are different kinds of education that we can get from people's personal stories.

I know that with this podcast, I'm not going to talk about, how to get your foot in the door. It's like, there are so many other podcasts that focus on that. I'm very much interested in the person and their journeys, and there are lessons to be learned through the person and the journeys that they've gone through.

And so I, love to talk about photography, definitely from an artistic standpoint, because like you said, it is an art. We are artists, and it's important that we can talk about our art in an open conversation and not just the [00:46:00] business side of it. That is an important part of photography. Sure. But ultimately, you are an artist and we need to be able to talk about it and talk openly and freely and nerdily about it.

Those are conversations that we need to be had So I love this conversation so much and I'm glad that we're here on this show. You did an interview with Gorman Dyes and you mentioned that when you started out as a photographer, the images were most made mostly by male commercial photographers.

What I'd like to know is how has the industry changed in terms of representation and diversity? Or has it changed at all, do you think?

Jackie: I think that food photography was coming from a completely different place, where it was like these people who had spoke mostly men who had gone through this very techie experience, so like it was more like a trade school situation that tends to be a little bit more, [00:47:00] more male oriented.

So it started with people coming from this very specific background, and now it's become more of for the people in general. As a result of that, it's only natural that there would be more diversity.

Mica: You said earlier about how it was very technical. This is a prop. This is this.

This is a product. There's no personality or personal ties to this photo as today. Photographers A lot of the work that they do, or that we do, is tied in with who we are as a person. It's a very personal medium that again, ties into ourselves as art.

Jackie: In the 90s you were in the 50s 60s on forever, if you wanted to be a professional photographer, you had to have a studio you had to have a lot of lighting yet. It was really very expensive and very specific. And what photography is as we've been [00:48:00] talking about here today has really evolved in a way that many more people can actually do it than could before.

And I think that comes back to what that whole question that you were asking of when I did that interview and they're like, what was photography and how has it evolved was like, well, it's evolved a lot. I mean, it is nothing really like where, where it began. And that's what's amazing about it. It's become more of a medium for the people. Just like if you're gonna be a writer, all you really need is a piece of paper, and a pen, you don't even need a computer to be able to write.

If you have the vision, if you have the creativity, then you can make something of yourself. But it's all again, comes back to you and who you are as an individual and what makes you special.

Mica: And taking that ownership, like you said, taking that ownership. It's really just taking ownership of [00:49:00] you, your art, and what speaks to you. I love that we're talking about this and shining a light on this because I think it's important that new photographers understand that the bells and the whistles don't make you the photographer.

You make you the photographer. You operate that camera. It doesn't operate you.

Jackie: It's the same with the guy who was doing the Polaroids every day. Polaroid was the most accessible form of photography for a very long time. When I was like a little kid, my dad had a Polaroid camera and he took photos that I still love and it doesn't make the photos That, that guy took every day any less art, in fact, it's just as much art as anything else. The iPhone has kind of taken over in that sense, especially because, oh my God, what's happened with the iPhone, even in the, in the past couple of years, where you can shoot raw. Everybody has that opportunity, just like everybody has the opportunity to be.[00:50:00]

To have a pen and paper if they, if they want and be able to write. It doesn't make it any less important of a medium. It makes it more exciting because everybody has an opportunity.

Mica: What do you hope the listeners... takeaway from today's episode?

Jackie: Well, I want to say thank you because this has been awesome. This has really reminded me why having these kinds of conversations about photography is so important. And that's one of the things I want them to take away, which is like, talk about it.

Have that conversation. Talk about art with your friends. Talk about what's exciting to you. With people you're close to and be able to brainstorm and imagine all the possibilities.

Mica: Jackie, this has been fantastic. Where can the listeners find you and support you?

and stalk you like I did?[00:51:00]

Jackie: My website website's jackie alpers.com. I have a cookbook coming out in October, which is the unofficial Yellowstone cookbook, which is recipes that were inspired by the television show Yellowstone that I photographed myself, and that I was inspired by some of the visuals on Yellowstone, which are I'll pretty cool.

That's available for pre order on Amazon. It'll be out in October. My current cookbook Taste of Tucson is also available. I think both of those are really good examples of where I am creatively and collaboratively with people. But it's all up on my website, jackieoppers. com. There's a link to my recipes, and thank you again for this opportunity. It's been really, really, not just eye opening, but it's like heartwarming in a way to remember what I love about photography and to be able to communicate [00:52:00] that as part of a conversation with you.

Mica: I thrive on those, these types of conversations. I really do. Are you on Instagram as well?

Jackie: Yes. Also at Jackie Alpers. J A C K I E A L P like Paul, E R S like Sam.

Mica: Well, y'all go follow and I'm, I'm about to go get y'all cookbooks because I love the cookbooks and um, thank you again for being on the show.

[00:53:00]