046: Finding Focus: When Life Calls for a New Scene

Mica: [00:00:00] Welcome to the 46th episode of The Savory Shot. A podcast about the art and soul of working in food photography. Y'all know who I'll be. I'm your host with the most, Mica McCook. I am a food photographer based out of Austin, Texas. I want to start this par-tay off by thanking y'all, the listeners, for showing up, y'all, I can't do this show without you.

So whether it's your first time, your 46th time, your bazillionth time, it doesn't matter. Thank you so much for listening, for showing up. But let's talk about today's episode y'all. Have you ever felt like you're on a treadmill in your current job and you're dreaming about pursuing your passion in photography, but you are terrified by the uncertainty of a career change.[00:01:00]

You're not alone in your struggle. First and foremost, imagine waking up every day, knowing you're about to do something you love. Imagine being surrounded by people who are in careers they absolutely love. And then imagine feeling the complete opposite of that. Y'all, there is no worse feeling than being in a room full of people who are doing exactly what they want to be doing and you're not.

You want to pursue photography full time, but it's a big leap. Moving from a traditional job into the arts, especially in today's world. Sure, the journey is filled with enriching, transformative experiences, personal growth, blah, blah, blah. Everything that those coaches tell you.

But ultimately, it's still a risk. The fear of the unknown is real. It's scary to step away from a secure paycheck and jump into something as subjective and fluctuating as photography. And I get it. Y'all I [00:02:00] truly do get it. I myself have been through several career changes. I originally went to college to become a theater arts teacher.

I realized three years into my education that my heart just wasn't in it. I dropped out of college and I hopped around from job to job for nearly 10 years before I found photography, but even then I was only able to pursue this goal, this dream of mine, because my husband supported me.

So I was able to take that risk, but that's not everybody. Some of y'all have bills to pay. You have kids depending on you. You are the breadwinner. It's a lot. It's a big risk, which is why I'm excited to talk about today's episode. Joining us is Evan Sung, a renowned food photographer based in New York, who also made a career change.

Evan has captured everything, stunning culinary stories from across the globe and his work has graced the pages of [00:03:00] major publications. Y'all, he has photographed over 40 cookbooks. What? He's collaborated with the top chefs in the culinary world. And fun fact, he found his first photography job through a Craigslist ad.

I think that's really cool. Today Evan will share his inspiring story. Practical advice for those contemplating a shift toward a career behind the lens. Y'all, this episode is so meaty. I know some of y'all will relate to a lot of the things that Evan says and talks about. Hearing him talk about photography and the energy he brings to his shoot, how he builds rapport with chefs is just a teeny tiny small bit of what we talked about.

We'll I won't waste any more time. We're going to get into this. But before we do grab your coffee, grab your tea. If it's five o'clock somewhere where you're at, grab a cocktail and a glass of wine, get comfy [00:04:00] and let's start the show.

[00:05:00]

Mica: Evan, I am so excited that you are here.

This is just. Starting off to be a banging day and we're in for good conversation. And I just really want to thank you for coming on the show and being here.

Evan: Thank you for having me. No, it's great to be talking with you.

Mica: Yes, Yes. I really, I want to dive right in. I've got a lot of meat and potato questions to ask. So if you're ready, I am going to get right.

Evan: Let's go.

Mica: Awesome. Awesome. When I was doing my research on you and listening to past episodes that you interviewed on and I heard about your story about moving to Los Angeles and then realizing this isn't really for me. I have to find my way. That resonated so much with me because that's my experience, except with theater.

I was in theater all in [00:06:00] middle school, all through high school. I went through college and a year before I was supposed to graduate, realizing I didn't want to teach. And I just dropped out and my family was like, what are you doing? You're almost

done. or you were gonna theater?

Yeah. I was going to teach a high school theater. And I did a, in not an internship, but I did like a shadow day behind a theater arts teacher and home girl looks stressed. And I'm like, I really don't want that. I don't want that for my life. But leaving that was really conflicting because my whole identity was wrapped in theater and who am I outside of theater?

So listening to your story that really touched my heart. What I wanna know from you is looking back at that experience, what did you see then that you couldn't see now?

Evan: Just that feeling that things will work out, things will be okay. I didn't have a deep connection with photography when I made that decision. It was a recent [00:07:00] hobby that I had started to play with and explore. And when I was in California, I was in Irvine not LA, but hour and a half south in Southern California.

I just felt very displaced on realizing that. That graduate program wasn't what I wanted, even though for a long time, I thought it was that was all disorienting and photography at that point was like art therapy for me. It was a place where I could explore my feelings and channel them into something else.

It was not a given that going into photography at that point would work out. I didn't know anything about the business of it. and it really wasn't something I'd ever thought about before. It was really just this kind of

Mica: be

Evan: if I'm not doing this graduate program, what, who am I, what do I do?

And I always say moving back to New York as a New Yorker is a complicated thing. A lot of people moving to New York is a place to start something new and begin an adventure. But for me, I was born in New [00:08:00] York, raised in Manhattan. So coming back to Manhattan felt a little bit like defeat and a little bit like, moving backwards.

So I had to figure out what I can do to make it not feel like a backwards step to move forward. There was never any sense that it would work out. Whether it worked out or not, I think there's always just this journey and trust that you make good decisions and, pay attention to what's going on around you.

In the moment it's easier to feel a little bit panic and a little bit unsure. If your head's in the right place and you're just concentrating on forward motion things will things will happen.

Mica: That is such a hard thing to know and believe. When you made that decision, you're like, okay, this graduate program isn't for me. I am leaving this moment. What were you feeling in that moment when you made that decision?

Evan: I just knew, I think I gave it every shot I could to make sure I wasn't making a rash decision and leaving that graduate program. I was very [00:09:00] excited to have gotten into it and it's a very esteemed program. It was a comparative literature program at UC Irvine. So I was thrilled, I was thrilled to get in.

And it was just life circumstances that made it clear that it wasn't really going to be the right path for me. Like I said, there was apprehension, there was fear, there was a sense of, when you think you know what you're doing and then you realize that maybe you got it wrong.

That's an unsettling feeling. So it was all bound up in apprehension, and also just holding my nose and closing my eyes and jumping in and seeing where this would go. I was lucky, of course, seeing my family's here. So I wasn't going to New York without any resources or any backup or any network.

It still felt like starting over again and, and my understanding of who I was supposed to be.

Mica: Oh, absolutely. I tell a lot of people is that the choices you make, the decisions you make, it's really no one's business. If it's right for you, [00:10:00] then move forward and trust yourself.

And a lot of photographers don't know how to trust themselves. In whatever decision making, they're seeking so many outside sources of someone telling them, here's the map, here's what to do, rather than trusting their own instincts.

Evan: It comes from time and experience too. You have to make some mistakes and then realize that some instincts you have aren't good and some instincts have are good and you learn to sort through them. I would be mistrustful of anyone when you knew right off the bat that every decision they made was the right decision.

There's always a little bit of room for doubt and uncertainty, that's obviously just the path of learning. You make some choices and you realize, oh, that wasn't the right one, but you recalculate your path and then figure out what to do differently next time.

Mica: For sure. For sure. There's, there's, there's no finality and mistakes. You can try it again and try it again. You mentioned that you got your first photography job through Craigslist, [00:11:00] which I miss Craigslist, no offense to Facebook Marketplace, but I furnished my first apartment with

Evan: Yeah.

Mica: had the free section, I used to call it Craiglistin'.

Evan: Back in the day, it was amazing. Not only did it get me my job, when I moved back to New York and I wanted to start shooting for myself, that was a big part of the my formation was photographing. I decided to photograph artists in their studios and all those artists I found through Craigslist. I just put up listings on Craigslist and people reached out and I look at their work, but all those connections happened through Craigslist back in the day.

Mica: Shout out to Craigslist, I hope you're not full of spam anymore. We miss you. We miss you so much. You mentioned that in this first job that it was through Comstock. What was the most unexpected lesson or skill that you learned in that job?

Evan: I just learned a lot [00:12:00] about what it meant to be a photo assistant. The guy who was studio managing and is still a very good friend to this day Brett Friedman. And he had come from movie video production as well, and so he knew his way around still photography production and movie production.

And so he brought the whole experience of real.

I don't know what the word is. It's not like militaristic, but it was definitely,

Be prepared for everything, show up early, leave things the way you left it, which is a real philosophy of being on top of stuff, anticipating, leave no trace behind, if you are in a location, leave everything where you left it. As a responsible assistant being early, anticipating what the photographer needs.

And just thinking of a million things at once. And that was, that was so much more than just reload this film, this camera, or move that light, or it was really a 360 way of looking at a photo set and be ready to anticipate [00:13:00] everything that would go on. I don't know that I was the best assistant, but I learned a lot about that philosophy and tried to internalize as much of it as I could.

And I certainly met a lot of assistants along the way, were very seasoned and embodied that, that philosophy and that approach. That was eyeopening for me. I thought as a photo assistant, we'd just be helping out, but it ends up being so much more than. It's really all hands on deck and just being aware, spatially aware and situationally aware of everything going on. It's a very respectable and praiseworthy job because a lot falls on the shoulders of assistants. And the ones who are really, really great and have done it for many, many years, they really, they make those operations glide.

Mica: One of the first few times that I assisted, I was the, I was like below the second assistant, basically. And the first assistant said, you [00:14:00] want to be within ear earshot, but also out of the way. So they don't want you around when they call your name, you need to be right there.

So don't go any further than that. And I'm like, what is, wait, so how, how far away, how many feet? And they're like, if they can hear you. That's where you need to be you count how long it'll take for you to move your body from there to there as soon as they call your name oh my God, I'm so paranoid.

What did they call my name? But I'm in the bathroom, Like, Mica? It's she's in the bathroom.

Evan: Yeah, it's a whole, it's a whole mindset. It's a whole kind of, yeah, state of like readiness and preparedness. I admire the, the, those guys and girls who can, be doing that for a long time and not get frazzled and stay cool under pressure.

Mica: What did, what did you enjoy about that time? How long, how long did you assist?

Evan: I was at Comstock, I think for about two years ish. Yeah, about two [00:15:00] years. Yeah. Year and a half, two years. It was great. At that time they were out in Jersey. They were one of the largest and most successful stock agencies, independent stock agencies. But when I had signed up with them, the whole industry was changing and so they had downsized a little bit and they had moved out to an office in Summit, New Jersey.

Commuting every day back and forth. And at that time they were regrouping. So business was a little quieter, but, so for me, it was a good time actually to be there and learn because production wasn't as intense. It built up. And so I got to see it ramp up in the time I was there and eventually took over as a studio manager.

Evan: But but yeah, it was a great learning ground for sure. And Brett really shared a lot of knowledge, a lot of time and really got along. When you're quote unquote learning with someone you really enjoy and you're having a good time, it feels like work.

Mica: Yes. And if someone if a beginner photographer what would be the best way for them to approach a photographer? [00:16:00] And say, I don't have a lot of experience. I'm still wet behind the ears, but I would love to assist you. It is it is a little, I don't want to say a risk when you take on a new assistant, because you often find yourself in shoots where this is not the time to teach.

I need you to know what to do, but it's hard because I, I, I do want to offer opportunities to people who reach out to me. So I'm, I'm interested to hear what, what your opinion would be about what the best way for a photographer to get assistant experience if they don't have that experience.

Evan: I mean, I would say, first of all, that getting assistant experience is a great approach. Having the humility to go in and just kind of watch and learn from someone and be open to absorbing whatever lessons you get from that experience, I think is really important. And then exactly what you said, I [00:17:00] think being totally honest and being very open and just say, Hey, I'm, I am wet behind the years I do want to learn.

I think it's partly on the photographer to understand where that person, the assistant is and to decide if they're ready to be responsible for, a large shoot or if they're just a second assistant position, just there to do backup and stuff like that. So I think for the photographer, for the young aspiring photographer, I think it's just a matter of be open and approaching people and obviously having a bit of a, a thick skin or just know that some people just won't need

your help or, or are too busy to share their time at that particular moment. Eventually you will find someone who will take the time and we'll welcome help and we'll be open to sharing. So be prepared for somebody else to not get answered or to even assist and maybe not have a great time, but I think eventually you'll find someone if you keep doing it. Fishing around you'll [00:18:00] find.

Mica: Yeah. What do they say? The powers in the follow up. If you don't hear back once, try, try

Evan: mean, that's a big part too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You never know. I, I've certainly had people reach out to me and I forget to respond because whatever it's busy or emails just get buried and and then someone follows up and then I will, I will pick up that Never

Mica: I love it when someone follows up. I try to answer every single email that comes my way, doesn't always happen, but it does usually in that follow up. So I love that you assisted and Lord, forgive me if I ruin this guy's name, Giacomo.

Is that how you say his name? Giacomo.

Giacomo.

See, it's, it's always the Italian names. It's always the French names that so the life of me. I cannot pronounce, but Lord, I'd try, I'd try. Giacomo, you assisted him, and it's really cool [00:19:00] that he took you on as an assistant. What do you remember about the shoots that you worked together?

Evan: I remember having a great time with him. I mean he was, he was a very fun guy, he is a very fun guy. I remember traveling a lot with him, we did, we did shoot a lot internationally, so Paris was

home base for him, and I was, I had given it my best shot to go out there and assist. I was asking around a lot. I had made a whole list of photographers that I wanted to approach in Paris when I, when I got there and had a lot of meetings, everyone was super nice but no one really wanted to hire an American.

We didn't have working papers and all of that. I was about to give up, I'd, I'd had many meetings and I thought I wasn't going to go anywhere, but at least I'd given it a shot, and then I met Giacomo and he happened to be looking for someone right at that time.

So it was, right at that last minute, just worked out. So that was great. He traveled a lot internationally for shoots. So going to Italy, where he's from, Germany, Spain. We had a [00:20:00] great time traveling, but I also remember just, sitting in his basement and kind of managing his, his archives and organizing that. And he would make a simple spaghetti and anchovy and lemon dish for lunch.

There's a little cafe by his house and we'd sit and have lunch out and just drink coffee. It was work, but it was really, he enjoyed life. I really enjoyed how he lived life. He was a big personality.

Evan: He was always on, talking on the phone to a million people and you things were always happening around him at first at that time, I think I got this is crazy. There's like a swirl of activity or what was he doing? And only now in retrospect, it's like it was all part of just his life. I was lucky to witness it in time.

I think I was frustrated by it sometimes because it seemed disorganized. But, yeah, in retrospect, I have a lot of good memories from working with Giacomo and he's also still a friend today and lives in Milan and we don't see each other as often, but he's a very talented photographer.

I've said this before is that we had so many [00:21:00] adventures and the camera was this passport to experience different things and to get you behind the curtain of a lot of experiences and people just see the front facing side of it.

Evan: As a photographer with him, we got to see behind the scenes of a lot of amazing experiences. I always loved traveling and it just made me feel like, Oh, this is something that open doors and open up the world. And you're lucky enough to be able to get those opportunities and really embrace it.

You can really experience life to its fullest.

Mica: I like that reference that you know, your camera is it's a passport, it's the equivalent of a passport. What was it about Paris that, you loved so much that you decided this is a place where I'm going to become a photographer?

Evan: Paris has just always held a place in my life since I went to go study there after college or at the end of college. I wasn't like enamored of Paris just because of Paris. I thought it was a beautiful city, of course, but [00:22:00] in the course of studying there, I just met some friends who are still friends to this day. Parisian two young Parisian guys who we all became friends and I would go back every once in a while to see them and.

I just enjoyed the people that I knew there over the years. I had more and more people. I got better at speaking French. And so that made the city itself feel more comfortable. So ultimately I ended up living there for that year and a half that I was working with Giacomo.

And then after that, I continued to return every once in a while to hang out with friends and see what's going on. And then for a while, I was shooting Fashion Week for the Times and for Vogue. com. So I'd travel out there twice a year as part of that whole circuit and catch up with friends. I'd go check out what was new on the dining scene there. And then really like in the last, 10 years or so, the dining scene really sort of transformed and jumpstarted. And, and I've been going a lot more recently. And just a really enjoyable place to spend time. There's a lot of young talented chefs [00:23:00] doing really great places. Yeah, every time it's a bit of a discovery, there's, there's new stuff happening, the energy is really good.

So yeah, I always feel at home there. It's nice.

Mica: In Eater you said that as a food photographer, I want to segue into this, you mentioned that your job as a food photographer revolves around making people feel seen and heard. What techniques do you use to make chefs feel comfortable and confident in front of the camera, especially like a short amount of time that you have. I did a a photo shoot And I, they told me, you literally, you have 30 minutes.

I'm like, wha, 30 minutes to get a shot of the chef and to get a couple of shots of the dish. I'm naturally extroverted. So it was easier to like, get them out of their skin and everything. But it, but it is tough. It is once you pull that camera out, it, the whole thing changes.

So what what techniques do you use?

Evan: I never think of myself as a natural extrovert at all.

[00:24:00] Whatever energy I enter into shoots with, or really most interactions, what I hear a lot

about back from people is like, Oh, you just seem very calm. You seem very like unfrazzled

Which sometimes I am from a little on the inside, but I guess I don't show it so much on the outside.

Whatever energy I give off in a shoot, it seems to

instill like I nerves.

It's peace or just ease or calm. I like to shoot to a laptop. I like to always be tethered. And, and I think, the work showing the chef, the image as it's happening is always big because they just don't, they don't know what it's going to look like.

So once they see it and they, they feel confident that it's, it's what they're looking for, that it looks good, that they're happy with that. Then that puts them at ease as well. I've also been doing this for a while and the places that I've worked for, the, the books that I've done, most people are familiar with that.

So that also instills a kind of confidence. There's less, breaking down of walls. I think [00:25:00] that has to happen. Trying to shoot something great in a short amount of time is not easy, obviously. And sometimes we all have to put up with that, but anyone in any situation that says, Oh, you have to do what you do in 30 minutes or less. It's not going to be the ideal situation for creativity or to make something great. You learn to make the most of that situation. But of course we'd all rather have more time to get comfortable, to ease into it, it's not crazy to think Oh, 30 minutes is hardly enough time, but it happens.

Mica: You mentioned that you, you go into your, your shoots with this very calm chill demeanor, energy. Was that something that just, you know, that that's intentional or that's how, that's who you are? Or was it, looking at how other photographers conducted their photo shoots and going, yeah, I don't want to, I don't want to bring that to this.

Evan: I don't know that I learned it from anyone necessarily. [00:26:00] Giacomo was very chatty and affable and gregarious and I don't think that that's me necessarily. But I don't know. I think it is my personality. I don't think I really try to do anything different. I, I, I know that people have said that before. I've been on like cookbook sets before where things are going a little haywire and I feel flustered or I feel internally okay, how do we fix this? And then later at the end of that shoot day and people are like, Oh, you didn't seem flustered at all.

So I guess, I just have a good poker face in that regard. But yeah, I think it's just yeah, how I am generally speaking.

Mica: I love that though because and I'm going to use such an example. In San Angelo, we had lots of tornado warnings, hardly ever any tornadoes, but lots of tornado warnings. And the first time I experienced one of the tornado warnings, I was like in straight up panic. I was like looking for whatever building, thinking that this was going to just turn [00:27:00] into rubble around me. I noticed that all of the theater crew, they were sitting outside of, So we had a main building. It was called The Stoop. They were all sitting out there just smoking cigarettes. And I'm like, What are y'all doing? Get underground. What's going on?

And they said Dr. Doll's not freaking. So if he's not freaking, then we're not. And I'm like, what does that mean? Dr. Doll is the director of the whole theater program. And he grew up in Kansas. So he knew his tornadoes. Anytime we had like a tornado warning, he'd step outside, he'd look around, and he, eh, and then he'd go back inside.

The test was if Dr. Doll's not running for cover, then we're not running

Mica: for cover.

Yeah, it's probably okay. I don't know if this is true, but I suspected that half of the time he did it because he knew that his students were looking at him and that, he has to remain calm.

So if he's calm, then we will be calm and that's [00:28:00] what matters the most. There's no need to panic. And so I love that there's all of this chaos going around, but the person that needs to be that center, that, that calm energy is what keeps everything moving forward. I would be a little bit more frazzled if the person who's in charge of the photographer, if they are frazzled and I'm like, okay, they're stressed. So now I'm stressed and I'm looking around to see who else is stressed. And, and then it's just this heightened ah, type of thing.

Evan: I think that's true, you know, it goes both ways too. I think that there are other photographers who are much bigger personalities and they create energy where there isn't a lot of energy and, and that's an enormous skill also. We all take pictures, but we all also bring our personalities to the interaction, to the set, to whatever situation we're in.

Sometimes I think, I wish I was a different sort of person who could create this energized dynamic [00:29:00] situation. And if the vibe is there, I'm happy to roll with that, but I don't think I'm the kind of photographer who insights that, generally. So my sets tend to be pretty calm and pretty efficient and hopefully creative in that.

Good and fun, but we all have our personalities. That also informs, our work and, and how people think of our work and what our reputation is and all of that. The more you do it, the more you just ease into the fact that this is the kind of photographer and kind of person I am.

And that'll vibe with some people and not vibe with other people. And hopefully there's enough work to go around that, you find the people that you really gel with.

Mica: You find your people, you find your people. So you have been a photographer for over 10 years. What keeps you coming back every day?

Evan: Every day is different. Every situation is different. There are people to meet, there are new problems to solve new locations to visit. I've been working around this restaurant industry, hospitality industry [00:30:00] for as long as I've been shooting. I didn't really know anything about it beforehand.

My family was not a big food family, necessarily. We went out for dinners every now and then, growing up in the city, but we weren't like steeped in, in seasonal cooking or things like that. In spending the time I have spent around the industry, I've just developed an enormous respect and affection for it.

And so every day is an opportunity to meet someone new and, all these people that I count as friends and acquaintances are people who really move mountains every day to make sure people have a good time in their restaurants or their bars and they're, they're generally fun and generous people.

It's a crazy pursuit, it's an amazing dedication to, to do that day in and day out. I just get a lot of pleasure from being able to, in my way, celebrate that and to work with really talented chefs is enormously satisfying. To learn more about food, to learn more about restaurants, to learn more about all of it is really [00:31:00] exciting to me.

Every day is an adventure, super cliche, but it's true. I, I just don't, I don't know what's coming from day to day necessarily. And on top of that, to have become good friends with so many people through my work is enormously gratifying and it's led to a really deeply satisfying network of people here and broad.

Again, my camera, my work is just this great passport to a life that feels very fulfilling and very well rounded and unexpected all the time.

Mica: What does your family think about you being a food photographer? When you became a photographer? What were their thoughts?

Evan: My parents have always been very uh, understanding and, and as have given me and my two siblings, a lot of space to do whatever we want to do. So they weren't, it's atypical, I guess, for Asian parents. They weren't particularly driving me in one direction or another.

They had questions, when I decided to get into photography as opposed [00:32:00] to academics. They didn't really, try to dissuade me or anything like that. And then as I went along, I was very fortunate and, and to, to start working with the Times pretty quickly, the New York Times.

And of course, at that point, you know, as as a New Yorker and parents who had moved to New York from Taiwan, they were very proud of that. And, they continue to be proud of the work. I don't think they fully understand what their job is, but they're happy if I have cookbooks to show or pieces get, that get published.

And yeah, they've all been supportive and they appreciate it. And, I get to take them out for dinners sometimes and they always have a good time.

Mica: That's, and that's great that you're, your parents are super supportive. I tell my brothers and anyone that I know of that's a kid that has children, I'm like, you have no idea how much your support means to your kids when they have this, dream that's not conventional.

That support will really make a huge difference in where [00:33:00] they go and how far they go.

Evan: It was definitely a two way, it was a two way, it was a double edged sword because growing up, I think my parents were very open to whatever I wanted to do. So I think when I got to college, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. No one said I should be a doctor or a lawyer or anything like that.

So I, I went in undecided and it took a while to figure out, like to find psychology. Psychology was my major and I really enjoyed that. And then along the way, I found literature and academics and, but yeah, there was always this sense of I could do anything on some level when you have no barriers or boundaries, it's a little bit disorienting, you don't really know which way to go.

Back in the day, at that point, I was frustrated, I was like, I wish my parents had some say or some opinion about where I shouldn't be heading. But in the end, it gave me the freedom to find my own path. Which is a gift for sure. But,

Mica: Being in this industry for the amount of time that you've been. How have you seen the industry invol evolve?

Evan: It's definitely grown as my career [00:34:00] has grown alongside food media, obviously. There was always Food Magazine, Sweet Wine, and Gourmet, and all these, and, and Saveur. But when I started, that was the beginning of Grub Street, and Eater, and a lot of these online food media sites that were ready to share recipes, and stories of restaurants, and chefs, and all this stuff.

So the appetite for, for that kind of content just grew, and grew, and grew. And it is symbiotic, like obviously now is the time where TikTok means a lot for restaurants and pretty TikTok ignorant, people working in restaurants can afford to be, so they play into that and they're aware of, of what fans and what's popular or what's interesting to people.

So since I started and I started shooting in 2004. There've been so many kind of eras. I, I talk about this with friends. Different periods restaurant industry and here's some names. You're like, Oh, wow. That's I totally remember that from, the mid 2000s or whatever.

And when I started David Chang, I [00:35:00] just really exploded. That was such a landmark period in, in New York dining. And obviously that, anything that takes the world in New York ends up having repercussions everywhere else in the world. So that was definitely a time where the New York dining scene changed dramatically and the understanding of what a nice restaurant is versus a casual restaurant is starting to get very kind of convoluted.

That was exciting, I think. And then there was the crash

was like, there was a boom of fine dining in, in New York. And then now we're after COVID, it's, that was a whole other sort of geological era. And now we're kind of entering into this new phase in New York where things are feeling rejuvenated, and it's very dynamic, very busy.

I think there has been a big emphasis on comfort food, like casual comfort food, but also, I don't know. I think there's also been an opening for talented people to do something that's more personal, which is exciting to see. And hopefully [00:36:00] there'll be more and more of that. New York isn't big. It's a big pond and there's a lot here. A lot of it is similar and it's nice to see people doing something that's just personal, individualized, that kind of stands out because it's going against the tide what generally is the most profitable or most saleable in the city. And I see a lot of that happening now, which is great.

Mica: When things really started opening up, I expected this, almost re renaissance of new restaurants, new everything, because we've all been, cooped up in our homes. And I'm happy that it really has felt like that. I'm happy that the restaurants that I love and love very much were able to stay open during, COVID because it really, really was a difficult time. As New York was just hit so hard.

A lot of, people lost their, lost their lives, lost their jobs. What got [00:37:00] you through that time?

Evan: I was lucky enough to be asked by the restaurant organization Roar to do a fundraiser. I spent a lot of the, those prime shutdown months organizing this auction prints that people would go on Instagram and they could order prints and raise money for the organization.

I was pleasantly surprised, but raise around 9, 000 dollars. So that was great. And then, in many ways, you just, you were just there trying to survive this unknown thing. So work took a backseat. I didn't sleep that much really during that time, but enjoyed time with my then partner.

And it was a very kind of obviously scary and unsettling time, but in other ways, peaceful. And you just were living in this very quiet moment, which in some ways was refreshing. That's weird to say, I know, but In a place like New York where things really slow don't really slow down so much, it was an interesting period.

Restaurant industry people were not [00:38:00] deterred and they were determined to keep their business going and do takeout and do all of these things. And at a certain point I got bored and I reached out to Alex Stupak who has the Empale restaurants here in the city.

And I know he was trying to get his takeout business going just to be able survive and pay employees and keep things going, which is admirable. And I said, Hey, I'm, I, I bored to death and you're doing these efforts to get, take out going. So we've shot before in the past. I shot his cookbook and we shot for his restaurants before.

And I said let's just, cause I want to be busy and you can use the images for marketing and to promote all the efforts and we'll just do it as a friendly exchange. And I did some of that, with people that I, that I trusted, that I knew that I had working relationships with.

Eventually restaurants started to get more and more busy. 2020 ended up being, I mean, I shot three cookbooks in that at the end of that year.

Was very slow for most of that year. By the end it was, I was lucky and it picked [00:39:00] up and it was obviously very different, but, but there was work and people were doing things and in spite of the situation people made it work.

Mica: That's so awesome. That's cool that you did three cook. That's impressive. I can only sit around for so long. I actually got into baking during that time and I went and bought all the stuff to make bread, the knives, the baskets. And, and then I watched a video on, sourdough starter and I'm like, nah, that's. I think I'm just going to keep watching people. You mentioned earlier about how you found photography to be therapeutic and and you mentioned just now about how New York, during that time, it slowed down. Was photography that same therapeutic that you felt then that you, you know, that got you through 2020?

Evan: I actually would say not really, I think for a lot of that shutdown period, I really did have my camera away. I don't [00:40:00] know why particularly. I, I think I'm quite busy with work and so I don't mind having the occasion to not have to rely on my camera. Yeah, it was, it was a peculiar time. There was a lot of social unrest. There was yeah, people were very ill at ease in the city and some ways it was just existing and then. Finding the pleasure in existing was living with my then partner at the time. And so yeah, I, I, when, when it came time to work again, then of course I was pleased to be able to work again, but I've never been someone to really, it's been a while since I like turned my camera as a source of therapy.

I was trying to, stay fit and, and these days like exercise and travel for sure, or, or the things I really going to museums are the things that really refresh me and restore me. I'm always happy to be shooting and always happy to have work and and I'm fortunate that it, it, it comes.

Always lucky enough to have that as a constant, but when it's not [00:41:00] required, I'm, I'm just happy to be in the world. Of course, I go out and I dine and I take crappy iPhone photos of whatever I'm eating, like anyone else, but that's more for souvenir's sake than anything else.

Mica: I, I nothiced that, especially, in the last year and half that I stopped taking my work camera with me and I'm just happy with my iPhone. When I go out to eat, I'm like, okay, I don't need to walk away with this magnificent masterpiece.

I guess I'm getting better at being able to separate moments where these are just for me versus moments for everyone else. What do you do when you need to seek out moments for yourself?

Evan: I do end up putting a lot of wherever, when I go out to eat with friends, a lot of that stuff ends up as stories on Instagram. It's a nice way to share that. And also, give shout out to places that I enjoy frequenting and or, someplace new that [00:42:00] I've discovered. I, I do like Instagram.

It's a great tool in many ways. And I usually reserve the grid for work related stuff. And then stories is just my day to day life. Like a glimpse inside of that. And I find it pretty fun and funny and I don't really take it super seriously. Yeah, stories are just this little visual diary and, you know, look, I, I am a photographer, so I know that when I take a picture, that's a bad, ugly, stupid picture.

I know that it's a bad, ugly, stupid picture and I'm fine with it. I'm not trying to, to,

I think that's

to be like a full on influencer. I think there's a lot of pressure to always be generating content and always be concerned about every photo being, totally perfect. I embrace the fact that I'm mostly just out there having a good time and happy to show that I'm awesome in whatever way, but then yeah, on the grid, is where I put the stuff that I, I consider like more cultural work.

Mica: They told us in school to treat your feed almost like a secondary portfolio of your website.

Evan: [00:43:00] I love that idea that someone was talking to you about Instagram at school, but that was like, part of your curriculum was to learn about Instagram.

Mica: I will say this though. He had no business teaching us about Instagram because we were teaching him more about Instagram.

So I have two more questions for you. We have talked a little about, food photography, how you approach your photo shoots.

So my question is, what do you think sets apart memorable food photography from food every day?

Evan: Anything that sort of unexpected is always fun. Just whether it's a pop color or some energy in it that unexpected. Obviously that makes it stand out.great lighting is as photographer something that always resonates, especially when there's a nice play of highlights and shadows. And then, I think story just a sense of place and a sense of personality, a sense of what's going on behind that dish is a big part of [00:44:00] it. There's so many different kinds of great photography in general.

Something very simple and pristine can be very striking and something very heavily propped and very messy can also, create a sensation in the viewer. I guess what you really want is to feel stirred by something, whether, it gets your taste buds salivating, or you just feel like you're transported into a place.

For a moment those are the ones that I think are the most emotionally successful. Emotionally successful. Yeah, the ones that make you really feel something that you can't even quite identify, whether it's like transports you to a certain time of day or a certain place or a certain mood.

Mica: How long into your career before you felt like you were creating standout, memorable images?

Evan: I think everyone is capable of taking great photos, you know what? It's partially just being [00:45:00] aware and being present. I think being a professional is having to do that on command all the time. But I do think everyone, especially these days with the phone, getting everyone's capable of taking really spectacular photos, at least one or two every once in a while, I hadn't really done it before. So being asked to go to restaurants and shoot these beautiful dishes. It was a lot of fun. And so I was super pleased with a lot of the stuff I did, it was all new to me, so it felt very fresh and I'm sure it wasn't that groundbreaking at the time, but, it excited me, so even at the beginning, it was enough to fuel me and say like, I really liked how that looked and I can't wait to, to try a different dish or a different recipe and see what that looks like. After a while you start to feel like you're In a rut or like you plateaued or you're doing the same thing.

And I always say that there was a moment where I saw the Alinea cookbook and that really jumpstarted a different understanding of what food photography could be, it was much more [00:46:00] artistic, much more visual and graphic and sculptural and dramatic. And that kind of set me off on a direction of working with chefs who really played it in that very graphic style.

Whereas before I was doing something that was much softer, much more lifestyle oriented natural light, that was something that inspired a different approach.

Mica: I love that. You mentioned earlier just now about how, you know, you didn't know if the images you were creating were spectacular, but they felt good to you and, you wanted to recreate that over and over. I want to close out today's interview witha new photographer came to you today and said, Hey, I'm starting out.

This is my, my new gig, my new life. What's one skill that they should learn now that will benefit them throughout their career?

Evan: I just always say that I think to be successful at anything, it just requires being [00:47:00] professional, honestly. Like you spend your whole career practicing your craft and trying to get better or try to adjust, address challenges. And you feel like, you're weaker in one area and you're trying to get better in that area.

Yeah. So that's the kind of day by day, lifelong quest, but the skill that I think really puts you ahead and keep generating work and keep clients coming back is just to be, kind and communicative and responsible and answer emails relatively promptly and show up on time. And know, all these kinds of life things that I think make people feel like, Oh, you take.

You take everything you do seriously, not just photography, but like really everything, how you enter a space, how you leave a space, how you do business. Those are the things that no one [00:48:00] teaches you. And you can learn a lot of these other technical things, but I don't think you're a hot mess.

But if someone were genuinely a hot mess then they need to learn to not be such a hot mess. That'll, that'll just get in their way. I, I have every belief that they are passionate about photography and want to succeed or want to create beautiful images. But if you can't keep things together and can't keep things moving forward, then you're just getting in the wrong way.

So to me, that's always been the most valuable thing, honestly, in any field. I think. Yeah, being, being the best is not, it's only going to get you so far.

Mica: Gosh, I could listen to that forever and ever. I know that you've got to run. I really appreciate you being on the show.

Evan: Yeah, no, thank you for having me. It's great to chat with you. No, thank you. I'm sorry that I do have to run, but no, it was a really good conversation and I'm really glad to have met you and yeah, it's always nice to talk about this industry.

Mica: [00:49:00] Where can the listeners find you and follow you if they're not already? They should be.

Evan: The easiest is on my Instagram. It's Evan Sung. N-Y-C-E-B-A-N-S-U-N-G-N-Y-C. Or www. evansung.com, for my website, which definitely needs to be revisited. I need to work on that, but yeah.

Mica: Thank you so much for being on the show.

Evan: Thank you. Take care. Talk soon.

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